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The Termination of Zaion LanZa

RestlessRain

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Joined:  Sep 21, 2022
iSure, but this thread isn't about starting labor unions for vtubers and bringing about socialised streaming, it's about Nijisanji's actions in the context of Zaion's termination with a helping of Nijisanji black company, XY company good in comparison.

And that helping in particular relies on current industry standards, not on how these standards can be improved.

And to be frank, huge, expensive debuts are a luxury, not a requirement. I'm admittedly not particularly torn up upon learning that a streamer has to pay out of pocket for a huge, expensive debut. Nice when one gets one done, certainly. But not something I'd see reason to pay money for myself if I'm short on it. Not when a debut can also be done at literally zero cost.
It's an investment in your brand as a streamer and your future career - you pay money for a quality debut to hopefully translate debut viewers into subscribers and channel growth. Not to mention there's an unspoken pressure to do it: everyone else is going to have high-quality debut streams, are you going to be the odd one out with something scuffed and cheap?

This was also an investment in a job that she was likely expecting to spend at minimum, a year in, if not multiple years. Getting fired only three months in (and part of that spent on suspension) because she ended up on the Nijisanji shit list for not being told about company culture is not something she could have reasonably anticipated either.
 

Aquatic Novellite

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Joined:  Oct 10, 2022
It's an investment in your brand as a streamer and your future career - you pay money for a quality debut to hopefully translate debut viewers into subscribers and channel growth. Not to mention there's an unspoken pressure to do it: everyone else is going to have high-quality debut streams, are you going to be the odd one out with something scuffed and cheap?

This was also an investment in a job that she was likely expecting to spend at minimum, a year in, if not multiple years. Getting fired only three months in (and part of that spent on suspension) because she ended up on the Nijisanji shit list for not being told about company culture is not something she could have reasonably anticipated either.
Did the rest of her gen have similarly high quality debuts? I don't actually know.

I definitely question the relationship between high quality debuts and streaming success. Let's ignore the likes of Subaru or Korone. Different era.

But current era? Holo X. Top earner: Sakamata Chloe. Basically told her manager "My dog ate my debut!" and improv'd the entire thing.

There's not much to suggest that debuts actually matter much, tbh. As a corp, my incentive to invest in them would thus be limited.
 

Gorilla Drip

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Joined:  Jan 7, 2023
Did the rest of her gen have similarly high quality debuts? I don't actually know.

I definitely question the relationship between high quality debuts and streaming success. Let's ignore the likes of Subaru or Korone. Different era.

But current era? Holo X. Top earner: Sakamata Chloe. Basically told her manager "My dog ate my debut!" and improv'd the entire thing.

There's not much to suggest that debuts actually matter much, tbh. As a corp, my incentive to invest in them would thus be limited.
I think it's more of a matter of peer pressure and perceived importance than real one. I honestly doubt a high-budget debut is gonna matter much when you're already in a big company like Nijisanji and you get a lot of eyes on you already, but it's still felt like an important starting point for newcomers. Do consider these people spend months preparing for this one moment and they're often incredibly nervous about it, and want to start in the best possible way. It's not too absurd that they're expected to pay for the debuts themselves, but it still feels like a big and forced investment.
 

CalciumAnimal

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Joined:  Feb 24, 2023
I think it's more of a matter of peer pressure and perceived importance than real one. I honestly doubt a high-budget debut is gonna matter much when you're already in a big company like Nijisanji and you get a lot of eyes on you already, but it's still felt like an important starting point for newcomers. Do consider these people spend months preparing for this one moment and they're often incredibly nervous about it, and want to start in the best possible way. It's not too absurd that they're expected to pay for the debuts themselves, but it still feels like a big and forced investment.
you would think it wouldn't but it does. Leaving an impression is superduper important especially in a saturated market ESPECIALLY when said market is saturated by your own company

Ninji viewers already have so many talents to pick from anything that makes you especially notable and leaving an impression means they are more likely to come back to you
That being said yeah ninji not footing the bill for zaions "lore" vid is something i agree with

Though I also think there should be some sort of deal or system to receive financial assistance from ninji in producing such videos since it's in ninji's best interest to do so and even if they have a income from a PL they might not be able to afford a good first impression
 

agility_

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All of this crap somewhat makes me feel glad those idol corp girls joined the tribes of Abraham rather than nijisanji.
 

Just pretending

The Great Bald Rrat
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There are 2 different sides to this shitshow: we can debate what went wrong behind the scenes in Zaion's case and whether her termination was justified, but we can also debate what will her revelations mean to Nijisanji and the vtuber industry as a whole regardless of whether they're true or not. I felt a need to emphasize that last part, because it looks to me like there's been a slight confusion about this.

Obviously Zaion/Sayu presented everything strictly from the perspective that's most favorable for her, so I expect at least some things to not be as bad as she presents them. However, as other people has already pointed out, some of it has already been partialy or completely confirmed by Niji itself in their official fucking statements, like her suppsosedly "controversial" jokes or holding their chuubas to different standards. Furthermore, people's reaction doesn't depend on any kind of evidence; Sayu's thrown shade on Nijisanji reputation as a company and from now on, people joking about someone getting fired for DMing a manager will be a staple part of dunking on Niji. From this perspective, they've already lost, because they're virtually unable to stop the rrats. We are coming; our name is legion, for we are many.

There's no lawsuit or NDA clause that can make it go back to before Sayu posted that document on her twitter. It's a "go ahead, call the cops, they can't unrape you" kind of a situation. What I'm most curious about is whether other companies will draw some conclusions from it, so as not to find themselves in such a situation in the future. We're not talking about EIEN, basically a vtuber fledgeling, but about Nijisanji, the biggest vtuber corpo. Others surely keep an eye on them and might try to learn from their mistakes.
Oh, who am I kidding, goddamn Japanese management never learns anything.

To be honest I wish NijiEN all the best as I wouldn't want all this fuss to negatively impact my Rosemi-sama.
 
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SZ 109

Guest
Joined:  Nov 13, 2022
On the lack of evidence:
While the evidence is circumstantial at best, I'd consider it's credibility, in this case, enhanced by,
1) The vagueness, and seemingly contradictory and petty statements of the official termination notice,
2) And how the doc (plausibly) addresses, and gives concrete context and explanation to the above.

Vague termination reasons might work when the reasons given happened behind closed doors, but every livestream is public, which removes the plausible deniability of the infraction happening behind closed doors. A few examples:

Falsely claiming to be sponsored by a brand during a stream:
Given all the available info, what could it possibly be referring to? Assuming it's either the a Raid or Deez incidents, wouldn't "Joking about" instead of "Falsely claiming" be more accurate? "Falsely claiming", while not technically incorrect frames it as intentional deceit, and wouldn't normally be used to describe obvious jokes.

Expressing her will to perform streams using illegal games (also known as pirate games)
I do not know what else this could be referring to, so going by the plausible explanation given, I'd consider phrasing it as "mentioning experience with unofficial versions of games" to be a more precise and accurate description.

Comments that can be deemed offensive to the rights holder of a game during a stream
Once again, I'm not sure what else it could be, and "offensive" can mean up to describing a publisher as being morally bankrupt, using some choice slurs against them and/or making serious, unfounded allegations.
If it was the UNO incident, a more accurate and precise description would be "criticism of a game during a stream".

The willingness to provide information (listing 12 points) contrasts greatly with how imprecise the claims are, and compounded by the fact that the verbiage used almost always portrays a range of severity way beyond the information available, it would reasonably lead to suspicions of intentionally using technically true, but misleading phrasing to exaggerate their claims, because a more precise and clear description, even without naming the actual aggrieved parties wouldn't sound bad enough.

The doc plausibly, and systematically addresses the claims, and given the short timeframe, the likelyhood of spinning a sensible tale decreases with each claim addressed, effectively using the number of claims to bolster their own credibility. It's one thing to spin up a freeform story in the face of a generic termination, but the difficulty of crafting a story that makes sense compounds exponentially as the timeline gets tighter and the number of checkboxes outside their control grows.

I'm also having trouble coming up with other plausible theories on why the VODs were taken down, but that's another can of worms.

This intentional vague wording isn't a new thing really, If the phrasing "life saving medical treatment for children" sounds familiar.
 
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Scoots

The Pontiff of PonWolf
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Joined:  Sep 10, 2022
On the lack of evidence:
While the evidence is circumstantial at best, I'd consider it's credibility, in this case, enhanced by,
1) The vagueness, and seemingly contradictory and petty statements of the official termination notice,
2) And how the doc (plausibly) addresses, and gives concrete context and explanation to the above.

Vague termination reasons might work when the reasons given happened behind closed doors, but every livestream is public, which removes the plausible deniability of the infraction happening behind closed doors. A few examples:

Falsely claiming to be sponsored by a brand during a stream:
Given all the available info, what could it possibly be referring to? Assuming it's either the a Raid or Deez incidents, wouldn't "Joking about" instead of "Falsely claiming" be more accurate? "Falsely claiming", while not technically incorrect frames it as intentional deceit, and wouldn't normally be used to describe obvious jokes.

Expressing her will to perform streams using illegal games (also known as pirate games)
I do not know what else this could be referring to, so going by the plausible explanation given, I'd consider phrasing it as "mentioning experience with unofficial versions of games" to be a more precise and accurate description.

Comments that can be deemed offensive to the rights holder of a game during a stream
Once again, I'm not sure what else it could be, and "offensive" can mean up to describing a publisher as being morally bankrupt, using some choice slurs against them and/or making serious, unfounded allegations.
If it was the UNO incident, a more accurate and precise description would be "criticism of a game during a stream".

The willingness to provide information (listing 12 points) contrasts greatly with how imprecise the claims are, and compounded by the fact that the verbiage used almost always portrays a range of severity way beyond the information available, it would reasonably lead to suspicions of intentionally using technically true, but misleading phrasing to exaggerate their claims, because a more precise and clear description, even without naming the actual aggrieved parties wouldn't sound bad enough.

The doc plausibly, and systematically addresses the claims, and given the short timeframe, the likelyhood of spinning a sensible tale decreases with each claim addressed, effectively using the number of claims to bolster their own credibility. It's one thing to spin up a freeform story in the face of a generic termination, but the difficulty of crafting a story that makes sense compounds exponentially as the timeline gets tighter and the number of checkboxes outside their control grows.

I'm also having trouble coming up with other plausible theories on why the VODs were taken down, but that's another can of worms.

This intentional vague wording isn't a new thing really, If the phrasing "life saving medical treatment for children" sounds familiar.
I find myself believing her because of 3 things
1. Her explanations line up
2. She is not shying away from owning up to actual mistakes such as the SA joke and the FF14 account lie (I feel like if her agenda was just to trash niji in addition to clearing her name she would leave out big mistakes like the FF14 lie I don't see any way we would notice it missing)
3. She refused to counter any specific claims by the livers out of respect for them and ultimately AGREED with her firing only disagreeing with the statement they made that made her look like some amoral douchnozzle
 

Murrayしないで

Just go live!
Joined:  Nov 18, 2022
So what did Cover provide for her debut? A model and a manager to train her- this is the Industry standard.

Okay, let's say it's the industry standard to have the streamer do all the work and coordination required for their own debut stream. Is it also the industry standard to not pay for it? That's the more important thing at this point. Someone earlier said that Moona said she gets a budget of $5k to make a new MV. Do the streamers get a similar budget for their debut streams?

There are already over 130 people in a waiting room for a stream going to air in 16 hours for a streamer who hasn't streamed in months.

This is going to be a big stream.

I don't need your plants or your pills or your powders, mister dealer man. Drama is my new drug and it is not in short supply.
 

Punished Anime Discusser

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430-ish people in the waiting room with 9 hours to go.
Give it another three or four hours, and that waiting room is gonna have more CCV than the average Kyo stream.
 

Scoots

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Joined:  Sep 10, 2022
There are already over 130 people in a waiting room for a stream going to air in 16 hours for a streamer who hasn't streamed in months.

This is going to be a big stream.
436 now
Screenshot_20230507-114724-872.png
Damm ninja'd I provided a cap tho so that's something
 

Paladin

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Joined:  Jan 5, 2023
Now that we're Numberfaging, IM betting she's gonna hit 10k this stream. Depressed Nousagi got 3k in USA morning hour and this is releasing at a primetime.
 

Airless

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Just pretending

The Great Bald Rrat
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Scoots

The Pontiff of PonWolf
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Went to check who Sayu is subbed to (possible she hasn't cleaned them up yet but it's notable she is still subbed to Hex, Ver, Meloco, and Doppio but no Kotoka unless I missed her.
she was also subbed to several JP talents that I could not type out be they from stars JP or niji JP.
No screencaps cause I didn't think to take any until I was way down the list
sorted by affiliation
XSOLEIL
Hex
Ver
Meloco
Doppio

ETHYRIA
Millie Parfait
Reimu Endou
Enna Alouete
Nina Kosaka

ILUNA
Scarle and pl Ami Yoshiko
Aia Amare
Maria

LUXIEM
Ike Eveland
Luca Kaneshiro
Shu Yamino
Vox Akuma

LAZULIGHT
Elira
Pomu

OBSYDIA
Petra

Noctyx
Alban Knox
Yugo and Unnamed

NIJI ID
Mika
Hana Machia

TEMPUS
Machina X Flayon
Magni Dezmond
Gavis Bettel
Josuiji Shinri
Regis Altare

VSHOJO
Projekt Melody
Kson
Ironmouse

HOLOLIVE
Hoshimachi Suisei
Hakui Koyori
Nakiri Ayame
La+
Calli
Risu
Moona
Shion
Iroha
Fubuki
Bae
Kobo
Gura
Okayu

E-SEKAI
Yuko
Rin

PHASE CONNECT
Pippa Pipkin

INDIE
Merryweathery
Amalee monarch
CyYu
Emirichu
Yuzu
Lord Aethel
Connor
Trickwi
Bao
Girl dm
Uto
Lisa (former tsunderia)
Lilypichu
Silvervale
Kana (I believe that's guras old model sister)
Filian

DRAMA/NEWS
Depressed Nousagi
Falseeyed
Parrot4chan
 
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Murrayしないで

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Punished Anime Discusser

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Scoots

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To be fair while the timing is suspect he didn't say anything about people feeling sorry for him like the VT dude claims at least in that clip its possible if slim that this is just a normal twitlonger joke

Edit: I just rewatched and hex mentioned a Google doc so that increases the likelihood

Edit 2: nvm I can't justify the 10 min difference in minutes between kyos joke and Sayus statement
Screenshot_20230507-130547-983.pngScreenshot_20230507-130238-079.png
 
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Paladin

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Joined:  Jan 5, 2023

Airless

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