The Termination of Zaion LanZa

[MornLurker]

Actually that made me think, are any of the Niji Livers as active in their PL accounts as alot of Holos are and were? Kson streamed when she was still Coco, Irys and Kronii still have active patreons with streams, KKKaren has active projects and merch, Noel has her porn ASMRs, Kiara did a couple keeki streams playing chink shit like Arknights, Azki still does concerts in person doesnt she? IIRC choco and mel even collabed with Kson a bit after she left holo as fleshtubers, and they both have a semi-monetized PL presence

Kagami hayato's PL is pretty much active and has been doing consistent live here and there, I also recall takamiya rion and gundou periodically tweet on their PL account and the former talent such as Mayuzumi and Melissa used to do their own stuff at PL during their Niji years too (ttrpg and making songs). That's the most I know of though, either most of them decides to prioritize their niji persona or completely put it on dormant

 

[SZ 109]

@SZ 109 when it was established that Sayu was in CA, basically the only part of an NDA that would be functionally enforceable is Trade Secrets. Having seen the go-around with Tech types and NDAs, that's the only stuff that's worth attempting to enforce.

What's going to be interesting is what happens on Monday. Most of the higher ups at Nijisanji will have been drunk for a week. And there's one super important thing to always remember when dealing with groups of Japanese: their inter-personal baseline has never left Middle School. You know how Western groups can descend into basically High School Redux? Where company employees are either greedy bastards or horny on main? Yeah, the Japanese do something different. It was explained to me it was like Middle School, but, until you observe it, it's a little hard to believe. But it's exactly what happens. Everything gets petty and it's clear almost no one has proper confliction resolution skills. (If you wonder why Japan is the way it is, this is a lot of the reason.) But, for us, this could be hilarious, because it's almost assured they're going to lash out at Sayu. Which might actually be the point of the document. We'll have to see.

Also of interest is what can or cannot be legally protected by NDA with relation to vtubers, on the extreme ends I'd expect proprietary parts of their tech stack something that can be enforced, while things related to wages compensation being unenforceable, but for everything else it should be interesting to see how it pans out in the court of law if it does get to that stage.

I'm getting the feeling that there's a significant amount of people who overestimate the power of NDAs, as if it it's possible to simply define any and all internal matters as confidential, while underestimating the court's power to void portions of contracts that aren't legal.

For reference as part of the NLRB 32-CA-164766 settlement Google had to "print[ed] and post[ed] on official Board notice form" (excerpt)

WE WILL NOT prohibit you from discussing or sharing information relating to your performance, salaries, benefits, discipline, training, or any other terms and conditions of your employment and WE HAVE rescinded any such rules from our Data Classification Guidelines and related Data Security Policy effective November 2016
(...)
WE WILL NOT maintain rules that define “confidential information” to include employee information about wages and terms and conditions of employment and WE HAVE rescinded sections of our Data Security Policy and our Data Classification Guidelines that arguably used such a definition of “confidential information” effective November 2016.

(Document Archive), (Case Archive), (Actual Notice (page 945))

---

Given how the JP management might have different sensibilities, I wouldn't consider it out of the realm of possibility they do something, even if they have nothing to really gain merely as a show of force.

 

[PleaseCheckYourReceipts]

@SZ 109 the funny part is that CA NDAs are a type of the joke in Tech Circles. If you aren't actually giving blatant Trade Secrets, you're going to be okay. Even then, it's going to be the companies suing each other. It's very rare it's Company vs Person, on that stuff.

As for Sayu's document, I still have a feeling that the first section needs to be read as Sayu looking for grounds for a wrong termination or some other Fraudulent Misrepresentation of the contract. Realistically, Sayu probably has a case and Nijisanji would probably be forced to settle and pay out for losses incurred (we're talking CA Employment Law, after all), but good luck dragging Nijisanji into CA Court. Unless, you know, they hire legal representation in the State of CA, send a C&D and suddenly can be drug into the courts there.

Realistically, this is more for emotional clarity for Sayu and to restart her PL character, but I've been involved in helping a couple of people very carefully lay plausibly deniable lawsuit threats that my ears really perked up on reading the document. It'll be interesting to see.

Though watch them put out a bad PR statement on Twitter can get roasted for it. At least that'll be some comedy.

 

[The Scream Guy]

Kagami hayato's PL is pretty much active and has been doing consistent live here and there, I also recall takamiya rion and gundou periodically tweet on their PL account and the former talent such as Mayuzumi and Melissa used to do their own stuff at PL during their Niji years too (ttrpg and making songs). That's the most I know of though, either most of them decides to prioritize their niji persona or completely put it on dormant

Ayo one of them did a ttrpg? Can I get a link?

 

[Thomas Talus]

Also of interest is what can or cannot be legally protected by NDA with relation to vtubers, on the extreme ends I'd expect proprietary parts of their tech stack something that can be enforced, while things related to wages compensation being unenforceable, but for everything else it should be interesting to see how it pans out in the court of law if it does get to that stage.

I'm getting the feeling that there's a significant amount of people who overestimate the power of NDAs, as if it it's possible to simply define any and all internal matters as confidential, while underestimating the court's power to void portions of contracts that aren't legal.

Given how the JP management might have different sensibilities, I wouldn't consider it out of the realm of possibility they do something, even if they have nothing to really gain merely as a show of force.

They might get a default judgment if the talent can't afford to defend themselves, or a favorable settlement if they can overwhelm the talent's ability to maintain counsel as the process drags on. Defenses generally only work if you actually raise them.

Realistically, Sayu probably has a case and Nijisanji would probably be forced to settle and pay out for losses incurred (we're talking CA Employment Law, after all), but good luck dragging Nijisanji into CA Court. Unless, you know, they hire legal representation in the State of CA, send a C&D and suddenly can be drug into the courts there.

Unless Sayu waived venue in the contract, she can probably sue in her federal district court and claim the effects doctrine (US v. Alcoa, 148 F.2d 416 (2d Cir. 1945)) subjects AnyColor to personal jurisdiction because their actions adversely affected someone in the US. As a corporation is the defendant, service is just a question of finding someone in JP who does process service for US cases, who can then go to their principle place of business, which is a matter of public record. Then it's a question of whether AnyColor responds to the summons.

Collection might be a trickier matter, but that's hardly unique to this situation.

 

[PleaseCheckYourReceipts]

@Thomas Talus Collection is likely the entire issue and why the first half of the document ends the way it does. Lawyer also probably told her it'd be really expensive to even get to the point of default judgements. Having observed the Bond Holders vs Argentina for... what, 15 years now?... it can be more expensive to attempt to collect anything from a foreign entity than it is to file the claim.

That said, we have to wait to see what Nijisanji corporate does. If they got Turbo Sperg on the issue, it becomes a very different conversation.

There's also the possibility they do some filing in Japan out of spite. If they were Australia-based, they could file this weird criminal charge-type filing. Without detailed understanding of legal systems in places, it's hard to exactly guess what can happen.

 

[Ｍｕｒｒａｙしないで]

Huh, it probably already was pointed out ITT, but either by pure coincidence or some smart planning by Zaion, she posted the document right at the end of Golden Week, if JPN corporate cared then she just gave them a nice suprise for the end of their holiday lmfao

I'd seen others make this argument about Golden Week, but it doesn't make any sense. When she dropped this, in Japan, it was in the morning of the Saturday after Golden Week. That's pretty much the same as any other Saturday. If she really wanted Golden Week to affect how Niji responds to this, she should have dropped it the Saturday before Golden Week.

 

[stassy]

Azki still does concerts in person doesnt she?

Azki is a special case because she went through 2/3 contracts (upd8, INNK and Holo) and PL was more active then "herself" until she officially joined Holo this year (song, concert, event), and she created her own music group Lapuri while being in INNK so the restrictions must have been really lenient for her. The only link between all that is her pianist SperioNz which is a freelance who was even working with all her activities (and he worked with Nijisanji too)

 

[MornLurker]

Ayo one of them did a ttrpg? Can I get a link?

Mayuzumi's PL did a couple of ttrpg sessions back then (he also did tons as mayuzumi iirc), though his main focus has always been modeling and variety streaming on his off-days. He also started streaming on twitch after he graduated from niji.

 

[cucurut]

I'm getting the feeling that there's a significant amount of people who overestimate the power of NDAs, as if it it's possible to simply define any and all internal matters as confidential, while underestimating the court's power to void portions of contracts that aren't legal.

I will say more. A significant number of people overestimate the power of all contracts, particularly NDAs and non-compete clauses. Contracts are nothing more than words on paper until one of the parties decides to sue. The only power they have is the threat of a lawsuit. Furthermore, lawsuits frequently result in knowledge (discovery), monetary, and PR harm to the plaintiff.
Why do both parties usually abide by the contract? Because it was written to foster profitable collaboration. Future venues and efficiency require mutual trust.
That is why you do not want to part ways on a bad note. There is a possibility that one party will sustain significant harm with no recourse. It could be referred to as real-life politics.

 

[Kourai]

How much traction this story has on Japanese social media, vtuber blogs and 5ch so far?

Good question. I'm not sure Japanese circles are particularly attached to a NijiEN member who was only around for two months and kept getting things privated. Sayu is fluent in Japanese, so it would be extra-spicy if she had a Japanese version of the document, but I'm not sure if she can or even wanted to sustain this deliberate writing style in Japanese for 22 pages.

 

[uquusquad]

Tribalfagging and its consequences have been a disaster for the vtuber race. It has greatly increased the profits of bigger vtubers , but it has destabilized the vtuber community, has made life unfulfilling to vtubers & their fans, has subjected vtubers to indignities, has led to widespread psychological suffering (in PL accounts to physical suffering as well) and have inflicted severe damage on the virtual world. The continued development of the vtuber industry will worsen the situation. It will certainly subject vtubers to greater indignities and inflict greater damage on the virtual world, it will probably lead to greater social disruption and psychological suffering, and it may even lead to increased physical suffering with roommates.

---

I believe Zaions story, or rather I want to believe her. As someone who is not a big fan of niji her story fits the narrative just too perfectly. However guys...
DON'T LET YOU TRIBAL ALLEGIANCE CLOUD YOUR JUDGMENT!
This is a "HE SAID--SHE SAID" situation.
We have Zaions (Sayus) truth, yes "her truth", and we have "the corpo truth", which does include her former colleagues.
Read the actual document before posting.

[...]

Notice that there is no actual EVIDENCE given? There is no smoking gun! The only thing we have is a few discord screenshots, but the names and everything has been covered up. So there is no way to verify this. This may just be an inspect element edit for all we know. How do we know her manager was a new hire? How do we know that niji promised her a bigger profit margin than what she currently got? How can anything in there be verified? It all goes down to "just trust me bro".
.
Some of you guys are throwing out words like MLM without really knowing what that word means or how those schemes are structured.
That MLM accusation comes solely by the fact that niji didn't pay her a salary and/or for her debut. Well we have no evidence that Hololive pays for your debut. Consider Callis debut:

Who paid for the the art? Ina made it for free
Who paid for the animation? Watson / Calli made them for free.
Who paid for the MV? Calli wrote it herself, made the movie herself , and the guy responsible for the sound design is kokoro beats, someone who worked with her "Demondice" for more than a year .
Watch the debut, remember her PC couldn't handle the smoke effect and her model was constantly stuttering, clearly they did not give her a streaming pc.
So what did Cover provide for her debut? A model and a manager to train her- this is the Industry standard.
There is no hard evidence that cover gives a base salary (the clips from coco that supposedly prove that ,do not refer to salary but to memberships). We do know that Fishman gives his talent a base salary (that is probably the only reason the jp branch hasn't quit yet), and that the Jewish Corp pays for equipment and ads for your debut. They are the exception not the rule!

 

[niggaphil]

update: Sayu will be streaming in 17 hours



edit: I doubt she will discuss in depth info about the document (if she hired a lawyer to deal with this mess). I am expecting she will mainly discuss about her future directions and streaming activities

 

[niggaphil]

So what did Cover provide for her debut? A model and a manager to train her- this is the Industry standard.

Have to make another post regarding this statement: Current Industry standard doesn't mean it cannot be improved, or modified.

Otherwise we will still have child labors across the world till this date. Because child labors are used to be industry standard as well.

Edit: Not trying to argue or pick a fight with you, it just my 2 cents regarding this statement

 

[Kourai]

Notice that there is no actual EVIDENCE given? There is no smoking gun! The only thing we have is a few discord screenshots, but the names and everything has been covered up. So there is no way to verify this. This may just be an inspect element edit for all we know. How do we know her manager was a new hire? How do we know that niji promised her a bigger profit margin than what she currently got? How can anything in there be verified? It all goes down to "just trust me bro".

We as spectators have no way of independently verifying the screenshots and screenshots can be faked. But Sayu would have to be a lunatic to outright fake screenshots (as opposed to "normal" selective presentation) considering how easily Anycolor could bury her for doing so. I know you're playing devil's advocate but this is a reach.

Some of you guys are throwing out words like MLM without really knowing what that word means or how those schemes are structured.
That MLM accusation comes solely by the fact that niji didn't pay her a salary and/or for her debut. Well we have no evidence that Hololive pays for your debut. Consider Callis debut:

Who paid for the the art? Ina made it for free
Who paid for the animation? Watson / Calli made them for free.
Who paid for the MV? Calli wrote it herself, made the movie herself , and the guy responsible for the sound design is kokoro beats, someone who worked with her "Demondice" for more than a year .
Watch the debut, remember her PC couldn't handle the smoke effect and her model was constantly stuttering, clearly they did not give her a streaming pc.
So what did Cover provide for her debut? A model and a manager to train her- this is the Industry standard.
There is no hard evidence that cover gives a base salary (the clips from coco that supposedly prove that ,do not refer to salary but to memberships). We do know that Fishman gives his talent a base salary (that is probably the only reason the jp branch hasn't quit yet), and that the Jewish Corp pays for equipment and ads for your debut. They are the exception not the rule!

I agree that some people are caught up on the debut costs without thinking about what the industry standard is, and whether their criticism would apply equally to other companies. But if you want to address the MLM meme I think it's better to be direct, so I'll use quotes.

>Hire 2-3 viewers to make a new generation
>Only pay for the model, force them to pay for literally everything else, including writing lore, graphics, music, and animations
>Collect money from huge viewership boost on new gen debut
>Let the new hire manager with 2 weeks of experience handle their entire generation
>Proceed to only do the "nijisanji basic shit" merch and forget they exist unless they pop off
They literally pass the expenses to the talents. So that's why they're more profitable than Hololive. It's literally MLM.

This is the industry standard for debuts. @niggaphil Whether it ought to be the industry standard is another topic.

The whole interview described in the document set off a bunch of red flags. When they asked for information regarding her income from her PL streaming career and her tech job while not giving specifics of how much she'd make under them while not being salaried or given a monthly minimum income, that is like textbook black company/MLM behavior. Everything about their internal process lights up the "is this an MLM?" alert like a christmas tree.
>participant is non-salaried/minimum income
Outright stated in the doc
>participant's main source of income is from predatory compensation plans from sales (merch sales, getting people to watch for ad revenue)
The intentional vagueness of "you'll make more money with us"
>nearly all participants that join MLMs end up losing money
Talents going into the red to make a debut worthy of one of the top two vtuber companies. They nuke your PL so you're forced to stay with them to make money in an attempt to make it out of the red
>the product is shit quality
Copy & pasted nijisanji merch
>poor customer service
2 week hire manager for an entire branch that punishes you for contacting them KEKW
>sketchy job interview
Everything I stated earlier

>Industry standard
>Industry standard, but I understand why "you'll make more money with us" instead of actual income estimates would put someone off signing a contract. Zaion still signed it though.
>Personally investing in the debut is industry standard. But the nuking PLs can be debated. Examples have been given of other livers with active PLs, but Zaion specifically had her PL activities held against her ("with your past life Twitter account which is forbidden to use", as well as the conflict over her PL merch). This is not industry standard. Usual caveat that Zaion is presenting her side applies, but I'm not sure what I could argue for Niji's side here.
>Doesn't really apply IMO since the main product is the entertainment
>Agree, this was inexcusable - unless Zaion left out that she was DMing "TWO NUKES WEREN'T ENOUGH" at them at 03:00 idk
>Repeat of point 2

update: Sayu will be streaming in 17 hours



edit: I doubt she will discuss in depth info about the document (if she hired a lawyer to deal with this mess). I am expecting she will mainly discuss about her future directions and streaming activities

Even if she doesn't say anything about the document the timing is interesting. Her previous Discord posts said that she couldn't stream because things were being cleared up, which suggests challenging a non-compete. Someone speculated that the document (damning as it is) may be the product of a settlement between Sayu and Anycolor, rather than a challenge from Sayu to Anycolor. If so, my expectations for future drama are drastically reduced.

 

[Gorilla Drip]

update: Sayu will be streaming in 17 hours



edit: I doubt she will discuss in depth info about the document (if she hired a lawyer to deal with this mess). I am expecting she will mainly discuss about her future directions and streaming activities

I swear, made me chuckle

 

[MornLurker]

update: Sayu will be streaming in 17 hours



edit: I doubt she will discuss in depth info about the document (if she hired a lawyer to deal with this mess). I am expecting she will mainly discuss about her future directions and streaming activities

Might be worth archiving in case she immediately nuked the vod to orbit the moment she finishes streaming.
Though I believe a lot of people were planning to do it anyway given the amount of attention this whole drama gets, never hurt to have an extra copy by yourself still

 

[RestlessRain]

There are already over 130 people in a waiting room for a stream going to air in 16 hours for a streamer who hasn't streamed in months.

This is going to be a big stream.

 

[CalciumAnimal]

Spoiler: Further Derailment Dragonball on the Town Projector

I do not wish to derail the thread, but this is a friendly reminder that when it comes to Dragon Ball, LatAm is on point with that shit.
I vividly remember Mexican bars were promoting the event like it was an actual boxing match. And the Mexican government ignored Bandai and illegally projected the chapter on the town's squares because people DEMANDED to see it live.

Video evidance of exactly that because I can

I have to ask LITERALLY who is saying were a bunch of ninji defenders/haters unless i'm dense (possible) i'm not seeing it in this thread

 

[Aquatic Novellite]

Have to make another post regarding this statement: Current Industry standard doesn't mean it cannot be improved, or modified.

Otherwise we will still have child labors across the world till this date. Because child labors are used to be industry standard as well.

Sure, but this thread isn't about starting labor unions for vtubers and bringing about socialised streaming, it's about Nijisanji's actions in the context of Zaion's termination with a helping of Nijisanji black company, XY company good in comparison.

And that helping in particular relies on current industry standards, not on how these standards can be improved.

And to be frank, huge, expensive debuts are a luxury, not a requirement. I'm admittedly not particularly torn up upon learning that a streamer has to pay out of pocket for a huge, expensive debut. Nice when one gets one done, certainly. But not something I'd see reason to pay money for myself if I'm short on it. Not when a debut can also be done at literally zero cost.