"It suits you it suits you! You don't wanna be ugly!"A-chan

A Career Burnt to Sinders

Xuhle

Well-known member
Joined:  Nov 9, 2023
After seeing the situation and fallout for a few days now, I wonder if those who dropped the character destruction towards Sinder bothered to run any of their planned actions and statements past their lawyers, in a basic Cover Your Ass before speaking sense. These people are a business as much as they are individuals, and a careless action or statement that can't be backed by hard proof could have an actionable response for interference. (It is not what you think or what you feel about something, it is what you can prove to a court) If you can't prove that Sinder had knowledge of what was happening, beyond "She and Red do stuff together", you may not want to call it out as her being in the know, and especially not in a public takedown.

After nanoless ratted out Sinder to the ones currently cancelling her, it may have been a better move for those affected to call her out privately, call her and Redacted to stand for the messages and actions that were done, and come to a "punishment" privately (excommunication from the friend group, etc), rather than the public expose that has carried on in the past few days. The communities would notice that something happened, and that suddenly she is no longer welcome with the group, but that a generic "we had a falling out over something behind the scenes, and that is all I can say" statement should be the response given. I'm sure there would be a ton of speculation and maybe someone leaks something on a burner account, but definitely nothing revealed like it has been so far. As it is now, a case can be made for the interference with the business that is the Sinder character, and that those making public statements did so with the express intention of causing harm to said business. A good lawyer would keep you from sticking your own head out in order to chop off someone else's, when a quick private knife in the side in a back room would be the smarter/safer option.

And before anyone gives the "Sinder interfered with them", yes she did, and they could try to seek recompense legally as well. But at the same time, they would be stringing nanoless up alongside her for her actions in the whole affair, and the heavier portion of ther blame could fall onto her for the actual action of cancellations for other reasons. Jursdictions and the like being a whole other matter to deal with.

This is all just a thought to roll around, more theory than actual legal possibilty.
Just as a hypothetical assuming they did how pray tell them go about that? Lily is in the Netherlands, Nano is ESL don't know the country, Spite British, and silvervale is American.

Slander/liable are meaningless as like you need to prove actually malice, and how do you do that exactly? Likely red and Sinder because they lived together never wrote down anything they were planning. And even if could prove any how do you tie it back to Sinder? Common sense dictates that but how on court? Cause at best your proving red to be a POS.
 
Last edited:

bothyourhouses

Well-known member
Joined:  Sep 28, 2022
People being unwilling to call out bad actors because they're scared of lawsuits is a cancer that rots away at society. True statements, or even false statements made in good faith with reasonable caution, are absolutely fine in all non-cucked jurisdictions, and even if you technically cross the line your odds of someone actually taking you to court are miniscule. Grow a fucking pair.
 
Last edited:

Zizara

No faith in Humanity
Dizzy's Wife
Joined:  Oct 30, 2022
Just for clarity are we trying to say exclusive deal is wrong cause if so this seems just petty and dumb. Like if they are getting good money why not take a deal like that.
There's a big difference between:
"I want you to work exclusively for me and I'll pay enough to support that."
VS
"I want you to stop doing work for that person. You can still work for the rest of your clients, but cancel your projects for this particular person and I'll pay enough to make it up."

Sure, Nanoless came through in the end (whether or not you believe it was under duress notwithstanding) but the ethical way for her to have gone along with Sinder's proposals would be to finish up what commissions she had taken for Silver & Bao before letting them know that she wouldn't be available for work in the future. She didn't do that. Instead Nano went along with and covered up Sinder's behaviour for a long time, cancelling on them unexpectedly for projects they'd already committed resources to and were relying on, and I'd bet hard money Silver & Bao could prove and pursue actionable damages against their business in lost revenue from the events these models were for + associated merch and donations, if it was legally feasible and they had the will to actually commit to doing so.

Sure it's just "business" and there's money to be made in behaving like this for the likes of Nano, but getting caught fucking over your customers for some short-term cash gains is also pretty bad for business too. Even if she isn't deserving of a cancellation I'd hope the people doing business with Nano are alert enough to notice just what sorts of places her weak will and greed can take her in the right circumstances and bear it in mind for any future dealings.
 
Last edited:

hayabusa9x9

Hag Impregnation Enthusiast
Joined:  Jan 4, 2024
Just as a hypothetical assuming they did how pray tell them go about that? Lily is in the Netherlands, Nano is ESL don't know the country, Spite British, and silvervale is American.
It would likely take a while for any court to figure it out, but there are legal remedies for cross border actions though how to get there is beyond my thoughts, and would likely be expensive. Even what might be considered as US Jurisdiction as it may be argued they are streaming through a US based site and are therefore conducting business in the US, or Twitch ToS, could be an avenue, but enforcement ? :iryswhat:

People being unwilling to call out bad actors because they're scared of lawsuits is a cancer that rots away at society. True statements, or even false statements made in good faith with reasonable caution, are absolutely fine in all non-cucked jurisdictions, and even if you technically cross the line your odds of someone actually talking you to court are miniscule. Grow a fucking pair.
Having a pair still won't save you from getting dragged into court even in a frivolous suit, costing time and money to defend. Best move is to do behind the scenes, keep yourself safe, and hope the community can figure out that there was something fire behind the smoke of someone being suddenly persona non grata in a group they had been a part of. At most, a "Sinder did something that we didn't agree with and it affected us and our business so we don't deal with her anymore" or "We had a falling out because professionally/behind the scenes stuff" would be safer than the nuke they dropped, purposely vague to reduce legal risk. That is why most companies will only confirm employment and the duration of said, and not reveal/limit anything else for liability.

It seems like Sinder (the business) is about to suffer losses as a direct result of this call out, it is not beyond the realm of possibility that after assessing the losses caused and possibly losing the entire enterprise as a result, that the person behind it may strike back in an attempt to recoup losses from revenue or now non viable assets.

I agree that society needs to toughen up, that some people do need to get punched in the mouth a lot more for the stuff they say, and that legal route is taken way too often for ridiculous reasons, but unfortunately, that is not the situation that we live in.

It was basically a shower thought post, but still I feel it has merit (but that may just be my own professional background and the need to be safe and certain before taking some actions). Getting a big public revenge may feel good, but the risks may outweigh the endorphin rush.
 

lukewarm

New member
Joined:  Mar 19, 2024
After seeing the situation and fallout for a few days now, I wonder if those who dropped the character destruction towards Sinder bothered to run any of their planned actions and statements past their lawyers, in a basic Cover Your Ass before speaking sense. These people are a business as much as they are individuals, and a careless action or statement that can't be backed by hard proof could have an actionable response for interference. (It is not what you think or what you feel about something, it is what you can prove to a court) If you can't prove that Sinder had knowledge of what was happening, beyond "She and Red do stuff together", you may not want to call it out as her being in the know, and especially not in a public takedown.

After nanoless ratted out Sinder to the ones currently cancelling her, it may have been a better move for those affected to call her out privately, call her and Redacted to stand for the messages and actions that were done, and come to a "punishment" privately (excommunication from the friend group, etc), rather than the public expose that has carried on in the past few days. The communities would notice that something happened, and that suddenly she is no longer welcome with the group, but that a generic "we had a falling out over something behind the scenes, and that is all I can say" statement should be the response given. I'm sure there would be a ton of speculation and maybe someone leaks something on a burner account, but definitely nothing revealed like it has been so far. As it is now, a case can be made for the interference with the business that is the Sinder character, and that those making public statements did so with the express intention of causing harm to said business. A good lawyer would keep you from sticking your own head out in order to chop off someone else's, when a quick private knife in the side in a back room would be the smarter/safer option.

And before anyone gives the "Sinder interfered with them", yes she did, and they could try to seek recompense legally as well. But at the same time, they would be stringing nanoless up alongside her for her actions in the whole affair, and the heavier portion of ther blame could fall onto her for the actual action of cancellations for other reasons. Jursdictions and the like being a whole other matter to deal with.

This is all just a thought to roll around, more theory than actual legal possibilty.
i don't think the goal was to seek compensation / justice / settle things and clear out dirty laundry. i think the goal was to really just, well to burn sinder.

also i'm not sure what kind of case sinder can pursue. cyberlibel? she'd have to prove there was malice which is hard to prove. if you mean tortious interference, then even barring sinder's own participation, i cannot fathom a court would take the case if all parties are in bad faith. even if there was a cause of action, as you've mentioned, they still have to deal with the issue of jurisdiction.
 

ZerroDefex

Well-known member
Joined:  Mar 17, 2025
They might rebrand it, like they did with Lean (you know that would be really funny if they do that again). Though personal taste it's not that good.
GamerSupps in general is just rebranded pre-workout powders marketed to weeb couch potatoes, the ingredient lists are mostly the same. Anyhow I don't care for them hiding behind "proprietary blend", I'll stick to products that give amounts for every ingredient like my supply of Redcon1 Total War.
 

Xuhle

Well-known member
Joined:  Nov 9, 2023
It would likely take a while for any court to figure it out, but there are legal remedies for cross border actions though how to get there is beyond my thoughts, and would likely be expensive. Even what might be considered as US Jurisdiction as it may be argued they are streaming through a US based site and are therefore conducting business in the US, or Twitch ToS, could be an avenue, but enforcement ? :iryswhat:
Slander/Liable are only civil action and even if you figured out jurisdiction, your odds of getting a trial, like Depp, is low and even if you did getting a jury to agree, again let's look at the Depp trial, are very low or having it just outright dismissed by a judge are a lot higher because they see this as a waste of the courts time.

Note I'm only judging this from an American perspective cause it's the only one I know.
 

bothyourhouses

Well-known member
Joined:  Sep 28, 2022
Having a pair still won't save you from getting dragged into court even in a frivolous suit.
Actually it usually will. People who file frivolous suits are generally hoping you'll give them a small payout to go away. If you're known as the type who fights, they'll leave you alone.
most companies will only confirm employment and the duration of said, and not reveal/limit anything else for liability.
Most companies are dickless cucks. It's not something to aspire to.
it is not beyond the realm of possibility
It's beyond all realistic plausibility. There have been like 4 cases ever of vtubers suing for defamation and it hasn't exactly gone well for them. Even if you win some amount of damages you still lose in the brand damage.
It's like lawyers telling people not to apologise because it could be an admission of liability, when in actual fact people who apologise get sued less often and pay lower damages in the rare cases where they are.
unfortunately, that is not the situation that we live in.
Be the change you want to see in the world.
 

Brosnan Pierce Brosnan

God's Strongest Smartass
Dizzy's Husband
Joined:  Apr 4, 2023
Counterpoint

Screenshot_20250429-141833~2.png
 

Xuhle

Well-known member
Joined:  Nov 9, 2023

reinigen

Dang it
Ward Security
Joined:  Sep 16, 2022
Mujin coming in with the summary video:
 

Superduper Samurai

Well-known member
Early Adopter
Joined:  Sep 10, 2022
Mujin coming in with the summary video:

>legendary
Chick was a footnote even in the wider twitch sphere tbh
Ironmouse is the only one at best that deserves that and only because she is undeniably big, not because she is talented or anything like that
 

MerelyTourist

jkterjter jkterjtier
LM's Ladyboy
Joined:  Feb 5, 2024
Defamation case will be retarded waste of time and money, tortuous interference is the only viable way, much lower bar to clear.
 

Smelliest007

Emoom? Would.
Joined:  Feb 19, 2024
Defamation case will be retarded waste of time and money, tortuous interference is the only viable way, much lower bar to clear.
MerelyTourist more like LEGAL FUCKFACE.
 

smartestkidontheshortbus

Well-known member
Joined:  Feb 25, 2023
The only reason to file a suit you can't win (she can't) is to dox everyone who just reenacted the Ides of March on you.
 

Brosnan Pierce Brosnan

God's Strongest Smartass
Dizzy's Husband
Joined:  Apr 4, 2023

CalciumAnimal

Drink Milk
Joined:  Feb 24, 2023
>legendary
Chick was a footnote even in the wider twitch sphere tbh
Ironmouse is the only one at best that deserves that and only because she is undeniably big, not because she is talented or anything like that
she is talented she just chooses to coast rather then do anything with her abilities or resources.

Reminder: if nothing else she's trained in singing Opera.
 

Xuhle

Well-known member
Joined:  Nov 9, 2023
Defamation case will be retarded waste of time and money, tortuous interference is the only viable way, much lower bar to clear.
Alright ladyboy figure out jurisdiction now and figure out if that bar moves.
 

hayabusa9x9

Hag Impregnation Enthusiast
Joined:  Jan 4, 2024
Slander/Liable are only civil action and even if you figured out jurisdiction, your odds of getting a trial, like Depp, is low and even if you did getting a jury to agree, again let's look at the Depp trial, are very low or having it just outright dismissed by a judge are a lot higher because they see this as a waste of the courts time.

Note I'm only judging this from an American perspective cause it's the only one I know.
Courts can still try to get out of country actors to appear through certain means, and if they have US ties (Twitch use, partial ownership of a US based company like GS,) they could compel appearance or even remote testimony or force an injunction against those interests, though it would be a stretch and very unlikely.

And I wasn't thinking or libel/slander, but more along the lines of tortious interference/ actions taken against the "business" of being Sinder as a result of defamation of blaming actions taken by Nano as being Sinder's. Hard to argue against most of the revealed information is real, that Redacted and Sinder have performed bad actions, but the "It was just business" meme does have a point. Some of the actions were taken to advance her own business. It could be argued that the vtuber scene is indeed a competition for eyes and attention, that the actions they took were to advance their business. Though it may have been a backstab to their friends, that the actions they took were not illegal in a sense, though it may have hampered their competition, and that they did not directly harm the others, but that nanoless is responsible for the actions that caused harm to the others. Sinder did not cancel commissions or lie about problems/reasons that may have created harm, but that she merely sought a competitive advantage. (if I need a certain piece of equipment from a supplier, I can offer incentive to move myself up the line in front of others/competitors, though it may cause those same to experience setbacks, but that it is the decision of the producer if it is worth the reputational hit or possible downstream problems that it may cause - contract break/financial penalty to do so) Seeking an exclusivity from them is an option that many companies seek out, how the second party in the deal acts on that is their responsibility. Yeah it was kind of dickish to try to exclude your "friends" from the artist, but it was nano that actually cancelled or mislead them as to why. She is "exempted" from the same kind of fallout because she has a product that is in demand, but is the party primarily responsible for the betraying actions, while Sinder who offers no similar "product" is open to public attack/cancellation for the suggestion that indirectly lead to those actions.

But the tweets and streams and their own words has shown that some of the actions that Bao and Lily have taken were do so "maliciously" as revenge for the betrayal of friendships. The reputational damage was caused to harm the Sinder brand and person behind it as revenge for actions taken by a third party. Sinder didn't go out publicly and demand that artists don't work with the others, that was done privately as a business negotiation (dickish when it is your friends, yeah, but common in some industries), that was initially accepted and then revealed by nanoless. Argue that the discord messages was a form of "contract" between Nano and Sinder Inc. Nano was free to break that contract, but the reveal to third parties after the fact can be questionable. And the reveal of that contract and character assassination done as revenge was very public, multiple Google docs, and several others not directly involved crawling out to clout chase with their own "Sinder is bad" stories.

A question would be, Sinder Inc's private actions behind the scenes to gain an advantage can be seen as a betrayal of friends, and given that any damages done by seeking an exclusive artist contract were mostly a result of the artist's actions, is the level of harm caused by the others reveal of Sinder Inc's (freind betrayal/competetive advantage attempt) actions in a public manner, meant to harm the business interests of Sinder Inc and interfere with the relationships/contracts that said business is involved in, both formally (Gamersupps, twitch/sponsors) and informally (is a twitch follow/sub a form of contract between viewer and streamer?). Sinder Inc's could argue that their actions were in the pursuance of business advancement, but the streams and tweets and google docs show that the actions from the other side were done very much to cause reputational and therefore associated business harm.

It would probably never make it that far, but the process to get to a decision would mean time and money for both sides. But again, dumber cases have made it to court and made very bad precedent.
Again, mostly theory and shower thought about what could be consequences for acting like a woman against other women. I really don't have a side, as both have acted poorly.
 

Xuhle

Well-known member
Joined:  Nov 9, 2023
Courts can still try to get out of country actors to appear through certain means, and if they have US ties (Twitch use, partial ownership of a US based company like GS,) they could compel appearance or even remote testimony or force an injunction against those interests, though it would be a stretch and very unlikely.

And I wasn't thinking or libel/slander, but more along the lines of tortious interference/ actions taken against the "business" of being Sinder as a result of defamation of blaming actions taken by Nano as being Sinder's. Hard to argue against most of the revealed information is real, that Redacted and Sinder have performed bad actions, but the "It was just business" meme does have a point. Some of the actions were taken to advance her own business. It could be argued that the vtuber scene is indeed a competition for eyes and attention, that the actions they took were to advance their business. Though it may have been a backstab to their friends, that the actions they took were not illegal in a sense, though it may have hampered their competition, and that they did not directly harm the others, but that nanoless is responsible for the actions that caused harm to the others. Sinder did not cancel commissions or lie about problems/reasons that may have created harm, but that she merely sought a competitive advantage. (if I need a certain piece of equipment from a supplier, I can offer incentive to move myself up the line in front of others/competitors, though it may cause those same to experience setbacks, but that it is the decision of the producer if it is worth the reputational hit or possible downstream problems that it may cause - contract break/financial penalty to do so) Seeking an exclusivity from them is an option that many companies seek out, how the second party in the deal acts on that is their responsibility. Yeah it was kind of dickish to try to exclude your "friends" from the artist, but it was nano that actually cancelled or mislead them as to why. She is "exempted" from the same kind of fallout because she has a product that is in demand, but is the party primarily responsible for the betraying actions, while Sinder who offers no similar "product" is open to public attack/cancellation for the suggestion that indirectly lead to those actions.

But the tweets and streams and their own words has shown that some of the actions that Bao and Lily have taken were do so "maliciously" as revenge for the betrayal of friendships. The reputational damage was caused to harm the Sinder brand and person behind it as revenge for actions taken by a third party. Sinder didn't go out publicly and demand that artists don't work with the others, that was done privately as a business negotiation (dickish when it is your friends, yeah, but common in some industries), that was initially accepted and then revealed by nanoless. Argue that the discord messages was a form of "contract" between Nano and Sinder Inc. Nano was free to break that contract, but the reveal to third parties after the fact can be questionable. And the reveal of that contract and character assassination done as revenge was very public, multiple Google docs, and several others not directly involved crawling out to clout chase with their own "Sinder is bad" stories.

A question would be, Sinder Inc's private actions behind the scenes to gain an advantage can be seen as a betrayal of friends, and given that any damages done by seeking an exclusive artist contract were mostly a result of the artist's actions, is the level of harm caused by the others reveal of Sinder Inc's (freind betrayal/competetive advantage attempt) actions in a public manner, meant to harm the business interests of Sinder Inc and interfere with the relationships/contracts that said business is involved in, both formally (Gamersupps, twitch/sponsors) and informally (is a twitch follow/sub a form of contract between viewer and streamer?). Sinder Inc's could argue that their actions were in the pursuance of business advancement, but the streams and tweets and google docs show that the actions from the other side were done very much to cause reputational and therefore associated business harm.

It would probably never make it that far, but the process to get to a decision would mean time and money for both sides. But again, dumber cases have made it to court and made very bad precedent.
Again, mostly theory and shower thought about what could be consequences for acting like a woman against other women. I really don't have a side, as both have acted poorly.
Alright torturous interference might be a thing, though what are odds for corporate espionage? Though Nano might get caught in the crossfire for that one cause they were revealing there own clint list.
 
Top Bottom