"I thought you liked it raw!"IRyS

Banter/Off-topic Thread & Community Stoning Platform

Zizara

No faith in Humanity
Dizzy's Wife
Joined:  Oct 30, 2022
It feels like any goodwill towards us has vanished in the last 6+ months.
Honestly, setting aside the historic disputes with Proctor for a minute, I feel discussion on vtubers in general here has declined in quality dramatically in the past few months. Not sure why; could be picking up a few too many unironic tribal posters, too many timeloops with the same people repeating the same talking points on the same discussions over and over, too many people shitting up discussions having grown confident they won't be bonked for it and recoiling in pain at the slightest implied pushback - but this circular loop of seething is getting tiring to engage with. I want to have fun with my hobbies not constantly have to defend them.
what can I say about the warning Limkin caught earlier in the general thread?
In fairness, I think Limkin has been acting like an aggressive shit-stirrer a lot lately. "Not everyone is like you are" is an entirely fair warning to calling the admin a dumbass because no-one actually holds ethics for their own sake and claming power exists only to be abused.
But he gets shat on when he isn't like that, too. All the time and 'round the clock when he actually gets shit done. Unironically more so than fucking MerelyTourist or any other current user. It's not hard to see how that wears one down over time.
Also this. Proctor can and will get migo'd and negativity just because he's the one making an opinion, not because it's bad, even if general culture would be fine with anyone else saying it.
 

Helkar

Well-known member
Joined:  Jun 14, 2024
Also this. Proctor can and will get migo'd and negativity just because he's the one making an opinion, not because it's bad, even if general culture would be fine with anyone else saying it.
Honestly true from my observations aswell.
Even when Proctor isn't being retarded, there is a selection of people who will be purposefully negative about anything he says/try to bait and antagonize him just because it's him.
And while "hurr durr toughen up" is applicable, sure, i can very easily see how this could get fucking exhausting over time, which i don't think is benefitial for the forum's long-term health.
"Not everyone is like you are" is an entirely fair warning
Should've written "not everyone agrees with that perspective" instead.
 

The Proctor

Manager Arc Unlocked?
Staff member
Lovebug Proctologist
Joined:  Sep 9, 2022
Honestly, setting aside the historic disputes with Proctor for a minute, I feel discussion on vtubers in general here has declined in quality dramatically in the past few months. Not sure why, could be pickiing up a few too many unironic tribal posters, too many timeloops with the same people repeating the same talking points on the same discussions over and over, too many people shitting up discussions having grown confident they won't be bonked for it and recoiling in pain at the slightest implied pushback - but this circular loop of seething is getting tiring to engage with. I want to have fun with my hobbies not constantly have to defend them.

Thank you for bringing this up. You might be surprised to learn how common a sentiment this is.

One of the things that I find quite absurd is the number of people genuinely claiming that I threaten them because of the things they say. People are allowed to get away with things as blatant as saying what amounts to 'I am here to shit on your lawn, and I intend to make you watch as I do it' directly to the staff's face, and know that they probably won't be disciplined for it.

Originally I thought this was a good thing, because it encouraged people to grow thicker skins and stronger temperaments because they would naturally be exposed to a higher level of cognitive dissonance than normal and not be able to simply run to mods to get the source removed and create an echo-chamber.

Instead the echo-chamber came from the users who exploit their ability to say what they like without pushback to simply be as obnoxious and aggressive as they want, in order to make discussing anything they don't like a tiresome, frustrating and depressing prospect. These users then react to even incredibly mild rebukes and gentle reminders that there are still some limits with near-hysterical horror and doomsaying.

After a while, the only people who then remain to bring up contrary opinions are people like MerelyTourist, who is so dedicated that he simply doesn't care how much anyone else dunks on him and blithely continues posting in his own insulated bubble of self-righteous immunity.

And while "hurr durr toughen up" is applicable, sure, i can very easily see how this could get fucking exhausting over time, which i don't think is benefitial for the forum's long-term health.

It is not only exhausting for me, it is exhausting for anyone who cares to support me. That includes people working behind the scenes or daring to offer some form of public support. When associating with the staff in any positive way immediately opens one up to being attacked on the same grounds, why bother doing anything to help out?

This even extends to the talents I post about. It is quite obvious that when I express an interest in somebody and act supportively towards them, they get far greater negative intention and bad-faith arguments made against them than normal. This can extend to the perpetuation of outright lies, something that almost never happens with vtubers who I don't know and have never talked about. This is not healthy for the forum, and it especially isn't fair on the talents themselves.
 

GOD'S STRONGEST BUILDERBEAR

"Shut up, Dazzle. I will clip your balls" -SB
Early Adopter
Joined:  Sep 12, 2022
to bring up contrary opinions are people like MerelyTourist
you cant bring him up as a contrary opinion cause his opinions counter common sense. Hes the definition of a guy talking about stuff he has no knowledge of.
 

The Proctor

Manager Arc Unlocked?
Staff member
Lovebug Proctologist
Joined:  Sep 9, 2022
you cant bring him up as a contrary opinion cause his opinions counter common sense. Hes the definition of talking about stuff he has no knowledge of.

Yes I can. He's the result of what I just described. Someone who doesn't give a shit what other people think of him, so he can't be filtered by the traditional methods that have evolved to hedge out contrary opinions. He just keeps posting regardless.
 

GOD'S STRONGEST BUILDERBEAR

"Shut up, Dazzle. I will clip your balls" -SB
Early Adopter
Joined:  Sep 12, 2022
Someone who doesn't give a shit what other people think of him, so he can't be filtered by the traditional methods that have evolved to hedge out contrary opinions. He just keeps posting regardless.
no you just described pipkun.
 

Hotdogs Aplenty

King Shiori Poster & Watcher
Early Adopter
Joined:  Sep 10, 2022

GOD'S STRONGEST BUILDERBEAR

"Shut up, Dazzle. I will clip your balls" -SB
Early Adopter
Joined:  Sep 12, 2022
Yea well im trying to come up with a more positive example
 

agility_

We have some serious streams to discuss 🔨
Early Adopter
Joined:  Sep 14, 2022
you cant bring him up as a contrary opinion cause his opinions counter common sense. Hes the definition of a guy talking about stuff he has no knowledge of.
Merriam-Webster's thesaurus has entries on this type -> also known as "a teenager", "a west-coast college student", "a journalist".
 

Helkar

Well-known member
Joined:  Jun 14, 2024
As i see it, any person actively antagonized by a community they try to engage with eventually reaches a point of going "eh, fuck it" and disappears from it. Limits might be different between people, but at a baseline, they exist for everyone. And when the person going "fuck it" and disappearing happens to be the sole host of said community, that might create a small problem. Will anyone here step up and take over the admin duties if Proctor decides to throw in the towel? I fucking doubt it lol.

And the issue here is that the problem appears to be unsolvable for two big reasons. First one is that Proctor is, in fact, fucking retarded, and a lot of the time antagonistic response he gets is fully justified. But the second is that the people who keep antagonizing him when he isn't being retarded, and who go on to antagonize the jannies for having a tangential relation to Proctor, will take great offense at any sort of proposition to chill out, and, given the forum's overall culture, are largely impossible to discipline(which is a good thing generally, don't get me wrong, but like most good things, with its caveats).
 

Migoed Helmet

Unintentionally reuses words in every longpost
Joined:  Feb 29, 2024
Thank you for bringing this up. You might be surprised to learn how common a sentiment this is.

One of the things that I find quite absurd is the number of people genuinely claiming that I threaten them because of the things they say. People are allowed to get away with things as blatant as saying what amounts to 'I am here to shit on your lawn, and I intend to make you watch as I do it' directly to the staff's face, and know that they probably won't be disciplined for it.

Originally I thought this was a good thing, because it encouraged people to grow thicker skins and stronger temperaments because they would naturally be exposed to a higher level of cognitive dissonance than normal and not be able to simply run to mods to get the source removed and create an echo-chamber.

Instead the echo-chamber came from the users who exploit their ability to say what they like without pushback to simply be as obnoxious and aggressive as they want, in order to make discussing anything they don't like a tiresome, frustrating and depressing prospect. These users then react to even incredibly mild rebukes and gentle reminders that there are still some limits with near-hysterical horror and doomsaying.

After a while, the only people who then remain to bring up contrary opinions are people like MerelyTourist, who is so dedicated that he simply doesn't care how much anyone else dunks on him and blithely continues posting in his own insulated bubble of self-righteous immunity.



It is not only exhausting for me, it is exhausting for anyone who cares to support me. That includes people working behind the scenes or daring to offer some form of public support. When associating with the staff in any positive way immediately opens one up to being attacked on the same grounds, why bother doing anything to help out?

This even extends to the talents I post about. It is quite obvious that when I express an interest in somebody and act supportively towards them, they get far greater negative intention and bad-faith arguments made against them than normal. This can extend to the perpetuation of outright lies, something that almost never happens with vtubers who I don't know and have never talked about. This is not healthy for the forum, and it especially isn't fair on the talents themselves.

Two points.


First: When it comes to the talents you posts about, I think you're overstating the influence you have on people's perception of them. Migos aside, Kirsche will always catch flak here because she does occasionally bring politics into v-tubing, and Mozu will always catch flak because of the piss thing. I mean, seriously, if staff members didn't like Kirsche she would get WAY more flak for stuff like the doujin of herself and such, we've branded other chuubas as whores for far less. Hell, people call Dokibird fat all the time because of a single heavily filtered photo from 5 years ago, Kirsche is getting the exact same treatment as Doki in this regard.

If people were really so obsessed with you as to anti women solely because you watch them, Soymilk would be under fire as well. But she's not, because she's done nothing particularly controversial. Kirsche and Mozu, on the other hand, would have been controversial chuubas to oshi here no matter what. They may get talked about slightly more because people want to poke the bear (see below) and admin behavior on any forum is often topical, but it's not warping public opinion of them any more than people constantly repeating the "stinky orca" bit about Chloe.




Second: It's not that you threaten people per se, it's that people find you threatening, and that is an important difference to note. It's very hard to know where your line is at any given time, so no one really trusts you to not blow up again. To some people, this means they want to poke the bear; to others this means doomposting, etc. I'm going to be very frank with you and say that this is a problem wholly of your own creation, and is the direct consequence of publicly flying off the handle in the past. The only way to deal with this is going to be literal years of behaving normally despite people needling at you over it. Once trust is gone it takes a very long time to rebuild it.

If the organizers of Off-kai came out tomorrow and made a public apology for being pozzed assholes towards Kirsche and Pippa, would you take their word at face value? Would your inherent trust in them be the exact same as it was the first time you heard of the convention, or would it take time and effort on their part to get that trust back? If they made a mistake towards another v-tuber 3 months later, would you write it off as growing pains or would your skepticism towards them grow?



Like, I get it. This obviously sucks for everyone involved, and I'm not unsympathetic to your situation. But this is payment coming due from your own decisions. That's just the way the world works, and holding that against people does nothing to rectify the situation. Giving it a while and taking some lumps in the meantime is going to be the only way it can get better for you and the staff.




EDIT: I will also say it's been a very weird year for v-tubing and a bunch of people are on edge anyways. A good chunk of the community is on tenterhooks as is, so things are going to be particularly sour until the dust settles a bit regardless.
 

Koronesuki

X-Potato
Joined:  Oct 1, 2023
I think that making @reinigen and @Johnny Jambalaya moderators was the best decision that @The Proctor made since creating this site. This place would have burned down a long time ago if it wasn't for them. Any hate they get for being part of the staff is undeserved, and they absolutely deserve more credit than they get.

@thhrang is okay too, I guess.
 

Helkar

Well-known member
Joined:  Jun 14, 2024
I think that making @reinigen and @Johnny Jambalaya moderators was the best decision that @The Proctor made since creating this site. This place would have burned down a long time ago if it wasn't for them. Any hate they get for being part of the staff is undeserved, and they absolutely deserve more credit than they get.

@thhrang is okay too, I guess.
I can't put an "agree" on this without you removing that last sentence, i'm afraid.
 

The Proctor

Manager Arc Unlocked?
Staff member
Lovebug Proctologist
Joined:  Sep 9, 2022
Second: It's not that you threaten people per se, it's that people find you threatening, and that is an important difference to note. It's very hard to know where your line is at any given time, so no one really trusts you to not blow up again. To some people, this means they want to poke the bear; to others this means doomposting, etc. I'm going to be very frank with you and say that this is a problem wholly of your own creation, and is the direct consequence of publicly flying off the handle in the past. The only way to deal with this is going to be literal years of behaving normally despite people needling at you over it. Once trust is gone it takes a very long time to rebuild it.

I disagree with this. The lines are all there in the rules, which were refined and clarified as needed fairly recently. I have never wavered from that commitment. If anything, I have demonstrated an insane level of forbearance, to the point others have asked me 'how the fuck do you tolerate this bullshit without abusing your powers?'

I have genuinely no clue how anyone would find me threatening under these circumstances. All the objective evidence shows that I am committed to my ideals despite enormous pressure to break them, and will even suffer personal harm and insults on that basis. I have banned exactly one person for reasons that could be argued to be personal, for one week, which I later rescinded after regretting it and apologizing to him.

I simply don't understand how I am threatening. It is not a line of reasoning I can process without explanation.
 

Migoed Helmet

Unintentionally reuses words in every longpost
Joined:  Feb 29, 2024
I can't put an "agree" on this without you removing that last sentence, i'm afraid.
Without @thhrang, how would TVA keep its connections to the gay Jewish community? Without those DEI dollars it gets a lot harder to run everything :smugmoona:


EDIT:

I disagree with this. The lines are all there in the rules, which were refined and clarified as needed fairly recently. I have never wavered from that commitment. If anything, I have demonstrated an insane level of forbearance, to the point others have asked me 'how the fuck do you tolerate this bullshit without abusing your powers?'

I have genuinely no clue how anyone would find me threatening under these circumstances. All the objective evidence shows that I am committed to my ideals despite enormous pressure to break them, and will even suffer personal harm and insults on that basis. I have banned exactly one person for reasons that could be argued to be personal, for one week, which I later rescinded after regretting it and apologizing to him.

I simply don't understand how I am threatening. It is not a line of reasoning I can process without explanation.

Those rules have been up for what, less than a month? Again, regaining trust takes time. Things that are apparent to you take time for others to test the waters for and accept. After someone loses the benefit of the doubt they have to manually regain it, it's not something that happens quickly.

I'm also not going to get into the banning one person thing, because there have been half a dozen questionable incidents involving the discord in the past year and that's the first thing that comes to mind when people think " @The Proctor " right now, not the rule change. Bad news always sticks in the mind for longer, that's a fact of existence.

Stick with it. I know it's exhausting but if you want to genuinely build trust you have to prove things have changed. Otherwise you're just Nolan with a British accent.
 
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Helkar

Well-known member
Joined:  Jun 14, 2024
I have genuinely no clue how anyone would find me threatening under these circumstances.
Discord incidents(fucking plural) contribute to that, i would assume. Last one being especially egregious and i think you might agree that it was very efficient in generating paranoia.
 

VSoyBoy

Well-known member
Joined:  Feb 16, 2024
One of the things that I find quite absurd is the number of people genuinely claiming that I threaten them because of the things they say. People are allowed to get away with things as blatant as saying what amounts to 'I am here to shit on your lawn, and I intend to make you watch as I do it' directly to the staff's face, and know that they probably won't be disciplined for it.

Originally I thought this was a good thing, because it encouraged people to grow thicker skins and stronger temperaments because they would naturally be exposed to a higher level of cognitive dissonance than normal and not be able to simply run to mods to get the source removed and create an echo-chamber.

Instead the echo-chamber came from the users who exploit their ability to say what they like without pushback to simply be as obnoxious and aggressive as they want, in order to make discussing anything they don't like a tiresome, frustrating and depressing prospect. These users then react to even incredibly mild rebukes and gentle reminders that there are still some limits with near-hysterical horror and doomsaying.
The problem is that the only time there is ever any kind of push back is when it's your oshi's reputation being sullied.

If I cried foul at people insulting, making up things and being downright slanderous towards Elira in the past year, should I expect moderator action to be taken? No, I would be laughed in the face for that.

Why does discourse about Kirsche get policed in an entirely different manner?

If I say Elira is the driving force behind Niji's downfall and she does onlyfans on the side. - That's a rrat and my opinion.

If I say Kirsche's actions are actively politicizing and thus worsening the VTuber space. - That's a lie and actionable?
 

Just pretending

The Great Bald Rrat
Early Adopter
Joined:  Sep 10, 2022
People only find Proctor threatening because they haven't watched his streams and imagine him as an intimidating figure like Mihawk or something. What is he supposed to do, put a Care Bear on his pfp? I declare today's batch of proctorlooping gay and boring, better luck next time.
 

Punished Anime Discusser

Well-known member
Early Adopter
Joined:  Sep 12, 2022
I have genuinely no clue how anyone would find me threatening under these circumstances. All the objective evidence shows that I am committed to my ideals despite enormous pressure to break them, and will even suffer personal harm and insults on that basis. I have banned exactly one person for reasons that could be argued to be personal, for one week, which I later rescinded after regretting it and apologizing to him.

I simply don't understand how I am threatening. It is not a line of reasoning I can process without explanation.
Did you or did you not have a woman moment at @VSoyBoy about how nobody likes him and that everyone laugs at him behind his back, then leak DMs you had with him, less than two months ago?

Threatening might not be the correct word, more like wary of your rat-like tendencies to randomly explode at people because you disagree with them.
 

Hotdogs Aplenty

King Shiori Poster & Watcher
Early Adopter
Joined:  Sep 10, 2022
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