Hololive General

[Koronesuki]

I've always hated this anime just from reading the plot summary. "Reeeee, church bad" completely ignoring the real history that modern science was invented by Christians.
But then, the Japs have always been retarded at philosophy and theology.

How many Westerners believe the same things? Can't really blame the Japanese for getting it just as wrong as everyone else.

Putting Kanade in the anime would have improved it. Youknowimsaying?

 

[All-Usernames]

Everyone gave me rainbows when I said she would be back.

Inb4 it was recorded before she left and recordings of mumei, gura and fauna got scrapped as they are not affiliated

 

[agility_]

It's as if disposable trash entertainment like anime cannot be bothered to fact check and run due diligence on historically accurate milestones.
Much in the same way hollywood cannot be asked to, in the service of entertainment.

 

[frz]

modern science was invented by Christians

It's as if disposable trash entertainment like anime cannot be bothered to fact check and run due diligence on historically accurate milestones.
Much in the same way hollywood cannot be asked to, in the service of entertainment.

Can you guy enlighten me what was wrong about it?
The anime specifically says that it was set in the 15th century. They even actually referenced the REAL person who came up with the theory in the 16th century at the ending

At one point, he would happen upon Draka's letter being delivered to Potocki's former address which inspires him to study heliocentrism. After teaching at university for twenty years, he writes a commentary on an astronomy textbook in 1482, influencing future scholars including a young Nicolaus Copernicus in 1491.

I don't think the fact that Christianity contributed to modern science in the 18th century erased what the Church did in the 15-16th century
In 1600, Giordan Bruno was publicly trial and burnt alive by the church because he defended Nicolaus Copernicus's views, he was the only person known to do so in the time period. That 1600 is set 200 years after the anime's setting.

I think most of the confusion are from people mistaking what happened to Giordan with Galileo. Galileo wasn't burnt alive, only house arrested, but the church defending and executing anyone going against their ideology in the 15th century can't be proven wrong with just "modern science was invented by Christians".

It took until 1822 for the Church to actually lift the ban on Copernicus's & Galileo's books lolw, they were absolutely controlling information and banning things that went against their doctrine.

Also I think you guys are confusing "Christians priests/officials" with "the Church". For me, it's more of a "Musician - Music Label" relationship. It's like tributing all of The Beatles success to Parlophone record label because they were signed to them. And very much like Music Labels, the Church went after people who illegally distribute Galileo/Copernicus's books. They might have yelled "Heresy" instead of "Piracy" but it's practically the same thing.

 

[Kanna's Glowiest Assistant]

Can you guy enlighten me what was wrong about it?
The anime specifically says that it was set in the 15th century. They even actually referenced the REAL person who came up with the theory in the 16th century at the ending

I don't think the fact that Christianity contributed to modern science in the 18th century erased what the Church did in the 15-16th century
In 1600, Giordan Bruno was publicly trial and burnt alive by the church because he defended Nicolaus Copernicus's views, he was the only person known to do so in the time period. That 1600 is set 200 years after the anime's setting.

I think most of the confusion are from people mistaking what happened to Giordan with Galileo. Galileo wasn't burnt alive, only house arrested, but the church defending and executing anyone going against their ideology in the 15th century can't be proven wrong with just "modern science was invented by Christians".

It took until 1822 for the Church to actually lift the ban on Copernicus's & Galileo's books lolw, they were absolutely controlling information and banning things that went against their doctrine.

I think you guys are confusing Christianity with the Church. I think it's more of a "Musician - Music Label" relationship. Sure Big Machine Records provided Taylor Swift to write her music. But you can't say all of her music are the products of Big Machine (which taylor swift later left them and made it known they absolutely scammed her). And very much like Music Labels, the Church went after people who illegally redistribute Galileo/Copernicus books. They might have yelled "Heresy" instead of "Piracy" but it's practically the same thing.

Giordano Bruno and Galileo were less tried for their ideas (and in Bruno's case, those included a litany of much more controversial heresies than just heliocentrism) than for the way they went about preaching them, Galileo in particular was awful at playing Church politics to the point of getting in the Inquisition's shitlist despite being repeatedly warned.
Orb just falls into that nowadays obsolete view that 19th Century historians (particularly in the UK and other Protestant countries) had of the Catholic Church acting as a stumbling block towards scientific and philosophical progress that wouldn't be corrected until the Enlightenment, as well as a false view of linear historical progress. It's still an interesting anime and with the drought of historical shows (not medieval fantasy) in the last decade I'll take pretty much anything.

 

[tarkanoltr]

She interrupted the ending screen to bring you this PSA:

 

[BlueSharkTV]

What a beautiful Hololive thread we have today
Zero schizo talk about unrelated topics
let alone the Proctor tier paragraphs overanalyzing something unrelated
And zero religion talk
Thank fuck we have split threads to avoid all of those things

Spoiler

 

[Negzana]

Can you guy enlighten me what was wrong about it?
The anime specifically says that it was set in the 15th century. They even actually referenced the REAL person who came up with the theory in the 16th century at the ending

I don't think the fact that Christianity contributed to modern science in the 18th century erased what the Church did in the 15-16th century
In 1600, Giordan Bruno was publicly trial and burnt alive by the church because he defended Nicolaus Copernicus's views, he was the only person known to do so in the time period. That 1600 is set 200 years after the anime's setting.

I think most of the confusion are from people mistaking what happened to Giordan with Galileo. Galileo wasn't burnt alive, only house arrested, but the church defending and executing anyone going against their ideology in the 15th century can't be proven wrong with just "modern science was invented by Christians".

It took until 1822 for the Church to actually lift the ban on Copernicus's & Galileo's books lolw, they were absolutely controlling information and banning things that went against their doctrine.

Also I think you guys are confusing "Christians priests/officials" with "the Church". For me, it's more of a "Musician - Music Label" relationship. It's like tributing all of The Beatles success to Parlophone record label because they were signed to them. And very much like Music Labels, the Church went after people who illegally distribute Galileo/Copernicus's books. They might have yelled "Heresy" instead of "Piracy" but it's practically the same thing.

Bruno was a degenerate occult-loving femboy whose justification for heliocentrism was as unsound as geocentrists's justifications, who said Jesus wasn't divine or the son of God and was just a magician. No shit he ends up on the stake.

The Catholic Church only had any degree of "anti-science" in that time to the extent that they just lost half of their population to Protestantism and grew paranoid about any new ideas that were sufficiently radical, but even then they only attacked Galileo because Galileo wrote a spiteful dialogue mocking the pope as an ignoramus for not understanding the brilliance of his theories despite the Pope being only the most supportive of Galileo beforehand.

 

[Sankisei]

her family didn't raise her well enough they should at least get rid of the one starting shit

This meme will always work for her

 

[La+ de Central Norte]

What a beautiful Hololive thread we have today
Zero schizo talk about unrelated topics
let alone the Proctor tier paragraphs overanalyzing something unrelated
And zero religion talk
Thank fuck we have split threads to avoid all of those things

Spoiler

If only there was a rule that said we should avoid disruptive slapfights

 

[band-m-aid]

I feel quite apprehensive giving out "le analysis" (foreshadowing) of what Gura thinks or feels based on an MV, but still, I was actually brought to tears watching it today, it is a very beautiful production.

Personally, I felt like the song is her communicating to the world about all the sad stuff she's been weighed down by for years, or repeat no less.
Then it feels like she was in an endless cycle of being in conflict with who she is, what she wants, and most importantly with Gura the icon (the Atlantis dressed second Gura). I would even say that she tells us that she was trapped in these clothes somebody else sewn for her.

Ultimately she defeats/merges with the second Gura thanks to the power of friendship. Whatever this means (her overcoming her fears, taking up the mantle voluntarily in the end, becoming larger than the image herself), it's completely up there.

But that's pretty much it unless we want to go into the "the sheets are blue, the author must be depressed" kind of autistic small detail analysis. Like I just know a schitzo out there somewhere would write an essay over the fact that the second Gura crushed the flower and the real Gura avoided doing so at the risk of losing her balance.
Or how she wants to stop the second Gura from leaving, and then becomes her herself and leaves.

But yeah, rewatching it several times (god, it's such a good MV!) I really feel that the strongest negative emotion there is entrapment. If I didn't take my schitzo pills this morning, I'd say that I can hear Gura screaming quietly
"I don't want to be your fucking icon, I just want to sing silly songs with my silly guitar and say silly things.
Why the fuck me being talented means I owe the world to do shit? Don't place your weird one-sided expectations on me!
I just want to have fun. Can't I just do this? Am I not allowed to be a small silly lazy shark?"

But thankfully I totally took my schitzo pills, so I won't do that.
Cheers. Gura love.

 

[Shuba]

Its not the numbers it's more than it sucks the air out of the room and seems like something that could be read as self centered. It's like you work at a job you love but get injured and have a company send off party planned but then the CEOs kid retires to coast on the trust fund and everything becomes focused on that instead of the person who actually wanted to stay in the first place.

From my perspective with this analogy, they may be working the same job but their branches are at different countries, so the people at the send-off party aren't as interested in the CEO's kid as the other branch. Basically, Gura's graduation announcement does not affect Mumei's ability to say goodbye to her fans in any way. Again, while there's definitely overlap, the fans that care most about Gura will focus on her and the fans that care most about Mumei/Shion will focus on them.

That's why the talents push themselves so hard from the time graduation gets announced until their last day. Woman brainworms will always be a thing for sure, but I don't think they'll amount to anything more than a minor sense of being overshadowed if there's any at all. This is cause their biggest focus is making their graduation tour as good as they can for said fans. Up until graduation day, their schedules are super busy planning as many collabs and final projects as possible, so I doubt they even have time to be focusing on other graduating talents anyways.

And from what Calli/Kiara said, they had no clue Gura was announcing her graduation when she did, so Gura and Mumei likely weren't communicating about it either. If anyone genuinely feels Gura is being self-centered and taking attention away from Mumei or something, it's cause their love for Mumei was weak in the first place and they probably want another reason to dislike Gura more than anything.

 

[USS IOWA]

Oh fuck game over man, game over She has gone to a top secret government facility cause she can resurrect dead people.

 

[White Stone]

I feel quite apprehensive giving out "le analysis" (foreshadowing) of what Gura thinks or feels based on an MV, but still, I was actually brought to tears watching it today, it is a very beautiful production.

Personally, I felt like the song is her communicating to the world about all the sad stuff she's been weighed down by for years, or repeat no less.
Then it feels like she was in an endless cycle of being in conflict with who she is, what she wants, and most importantly with Gura the icon (the Atlantis dressed second Gura). I would even say that she tells us that she was trapped in these clothes somebody else sewn for her.

Ultimately she defeats/merges with the second Gura thanks to the power of friendship. Whatever this means (her overcoming her fears, taking up the mantle voluntarily in the end, becoming larger than the image herself), it's completely up there.

But that's pretty much it unless we want to go into the "the sheets are blue, the author must be depressed" kind of autistic small detail analysis. Like I just know a schitzo out there somewhere would write an essay over the fact that the second Gura crushed the flower and the real Gura avoided doing so at the risk of losing her balance.
Or how she wants to stop the second Gura from leaving, and then becomes her herself and leaves.

But yeah, rewatching it several times (god, it's such a good MV!) I really feel that the strongest negative emotion there is entrapment. If I didn't take my schitzo pills this morning, I'd say that I can hear Gura screaming quietly
"I don't want to be your fucking icon, I just want to sing silly songs with my silly guitar and say silly things.
Why the fuck me being talented means I owe the world to do shit? Don't place your weird one-sided expectations on me!
I just want to have fun. Can't I just do this? Am I not allowed to be a small silly lazy shark?"

But thankfully I totally took my schitzo pills, so I won't do that.
Cheers. Gura love.

"They say the memory of me is fading, I've heard it all before."
"Don't tell me everyone around is waiting."

She is obviously addressing some of you.

 

[Horo7618]

Squirrel singing: