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Getting Nihongo Jouzu

pururun

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Joined:  Sep 17, 2022
I figured that the workshop could use a thread for learning 日本語, and being that /djt/ over on /jp/ is typically a dumpster fire I thought this could be a good spot to offer support, share techniques, etc.

Like a lot of people I started off trying to learn Japanese in a way very reminiscent of how schools teach language, doing vocab drills, grammar, lectures in your native language, etc. from people like Japanese Ammo with Misa and Cure Dolly. However, I didn't really start getting real progress until I began following the All Japanese All the Time method, which I encourage everyone to read, even if they don't intend to learn Japanese or even another language. Just lots of great life advice contained in it. The table of contents is the meat and potatoes, but there are other great blog posts on the site too. It is true that the blog's creator, Khatzumoto, started to turn the site into more of a cash grab as time went on (confining an actual explanation of the MCD sentence format to a paid product is a big example of this), but the old material is still great, and even some of the post-cash grab content can be very good.


Another site I want to mention is Kanji Damage, a site made for learning kanji. I go back and forth on whether this or the traditional Heisig Remembering the Kanji book is better, but Kanji Damage has some big positives in a great learning order and more modern mnemonics. An understandable criticism people have is some of the explanations can be on the vulgar side, but that might just help you memorize them even more.

Another very important tool of the trade is Anki, a memorization application, which you'll get a lot of good use out of. I'll include a link to the Kanji Damage Anki deck too.

I hope that this helps anyone curious about learning the language, and that we can help each other out, share immersion material, and maybe talk about Japanese only vtubers.
 

MornLurker

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Joined:  Sep 12, 2022
Here are my own references to add to the list

From my personal experience, I find that it's easier to pick up Japanese once you could memorize katakana/hiragana as it is the basis for any step you're going to take in Japanese learning. I recommend giving a read on tofugu's hiragana introduction if you're looking to start with the basics before anything else.

Tofugu's feature:
- Teaching you how to get used to writing each letter
- Visual help for those who find it easier to remember things with hints



WaniKani is also a good site if you're looking for a way to memorize kanji in general, they started you up with simple katakana/hiragana and gradually added more complicated kanji once you're confident enough to add more words in your study

WaniKani feature:
- Usage explanation for any radicals, kanji, and vocabs that are being teached with few examples
- Ways to memorize it
- Review feature to make sure you're not forgetting what you just learned



For grammars and such, Youtube channels like JapanSocietyNYC's uki-uki nihongo program and SambonJuku is worth to watch through.
Uki-Uki Nihongo is more aimed towards new learners as they mostly teach basic stuff such as introduction/simple conversation,
while SambonJuku focused more on grammar/wording that you might find in JLPT questions, most of their videos include english captions so it's all newbie friendly
Another site that is good as an online dictionary is Jisho, just throw any kanji (not a full sentences) and it'll give you an explanation about it and the many variations of meaning depends on the context you're looking for

Besides using the resources above, I'm also using workbooks (like the one officially issued by jlpt) because that's the only way for me to get used to writing kanji more instead of typing them.
 

Realticule

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Joined:  Sep 11, 2022
Tofugu's feature:
- Teaching you how to get used to writing each letter
- Visual help for those who find it easier to remember things with hints
I used Tofugu to pick up some basics before being sidetracked, but I'll recommend them as even now a couple years later I still remember most of the hiragana when I see them.
 

paul

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Joined:  Sep 13, 2022
I will crosspost some learning tips from the main land that @contracted weeb posted there. I'm sure he don't mind if I share it here too. He lives in Japan and summarized his experience in two parts:
Just a heads up you aint gonna learn Japanese just from watching Holo's even self teaching is almost impossible.
What i would recommend is taking some classes or going on a course for it. They will help you tremendously. Going at it solo is most peoples problems because they learn grammar but dont know structure.
If you can try get a native speaker to give you lessons. If Not you will pick up all the mistakes that the person who is teaching you learned.

-Learn Strokes for Kanji, Hira and Kana if not you're gonna be fucked
- If you can find other Japanese speakers and practise. If you go to Japan you will be fucked if you can't hold a conversation
-Dialect isnt that important its more tone of voice and pitch when it comes to speaking. Some country words might pop up but its very rare.
-Try Expeirence Japan and get a good feel for the language listen to audio books and watch stuff in the language. Don't just limit yourself to one font or a way of speaking its different for everyone.
-3-4 Hours of studying a day broken up into 1 hour blocks.

The best thing i did for learning JP was literally living in Japan.
Before coming i had studied for 2.5 years and had a grasp of the language but dropping yourself into that situation forces you to adapt to it. Some people speak slowly others fast.
Reading it is overall easier like that should take a few years but speaking is the real challenge without others around you won't be able to.

あの 男の子は だれですか
That Boy Who Is

This is your basic translation for the language. Forget everything you know about english grammar.



Please dont message me asking for lessons or advice. There are literally more qualified people to do that online. To start off with i would recommend the books below they are fully in Japanese and are a great start at the bottom level N5
Commiting to this Language is a full time job its not 1 year and you're perfect for the rest of your life you'll be constantly learning. It could take 3 or 4 years for you to even begin to understand anything. There will be mental hurdles along the way and its your job to overcome them.
As i posted before but ill throw some more tips in.
Look i would recommend before even starting with anything and i mean anything you drill Hira and Kana into your brain till you know it better than English because without that your brain is just gonna die. The biggest mistake people make is thinking they know it then trying to study grammar. Please learn it fluently to the point were if a symbol appeared your brain immediatly goes i know that.

Start with learning grammar the biggest problem for most people is this including me i just started learning vocab thinking that grammar would come naturally no study it learn it. The thing with Japanese sentances that i didnt mention before is that you can say them in anyway

Japanese, along with other asian languages, are context based, which means that in order to understand what you read most of the times you are required to read context previous to those sentences. Additionally, Japanese is a language that is read by blocks of text, which means that most if not almost all sentences can be rearranged in whatever order the reader wants (as long as these blocks have correct grammar usage in them.

Kanji are formulaic, and the way to read them is quite easy.
If the kanji is singled out and is surrounded by hiragana, assume its ALWAYS read with its kun reading (Japanese reading). Kun readings tend to be accompanied with each kanji’s specific verb terminations.
If you see two or more kanjis together you read them with “On” reading (Chinese reading).
There is no set order you have to follow, but I highly recommend certain kanji memorizations taking priority over others: numbers, subject-related kanjis (ore, watashi, boku, ware…), basic movement kanjis (coming and going, returning home, etc…). Also, learn the kunyomi reading of the kanjis, since they’re always related to verbs

Honestly if you have time and a fuck ton of money find a language school in Japan to go to. You can easily get N2-N1 In like 2 years.
I've been studying a little over 6 years now and i know roughly like 2040 Kanji thats what the average Japanese person knows anything after that and you are scholar level
Look there are times when you wanna just give up i did like 3 times but honestly the moment when you've studied for like 3+ years and everything just clicks nothing compares dont give up its a daunting challenge believe me but if you really wanna do it then you will have the will power to pull through.
And please for the love of god take classes with native speakers. Japanese people are mostly friendly and kind when you express an interest in their culture/language they will help you and fairly critisice you. Getting a fucking know it all westerner who thinks he's amazing will ruin it they are the worst. They will just bully you for not knowing basic things.

Another big problem is that when most people start they dont have a goal E.g. Reading, Speaking or Listening always start with one because your brain is just gonna burn out trying to learn all three take it easy and at your own pace. I went with Reading -> Listening -> Speaking.
As i mentioned in my last post about this its a very difficuly language you honestly feel for the first 7-12 months that you arent going anywhere but you are trust me, its a grind.
Unfortunately I still cannot motivate myself to start learning.
 

Lesbian Solid Snake

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Joined:  Sep 19, 2022
Basically everything Paul posted. I will say that if you do want to go to a language school in Japan I would highly recommend studying in your own country and primary language for at least a year before going. Most classes in japan are taught entirely in japanese even the very beginner ones. Most textbooks are going to be in Japanese and English so if English isn't your strongest language I would try to find classes or books that are geared towards you.
 

agility_

We have some serious streams to discuss 🔨
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Joined:  Sep 14, 2022
If you have access to Japanese films, please turn off the subtitles. You'll do this to start training your ears to the way they speak the actual language as opposed to the sterilized controlled practice drills on learning audios. Avoid the news as they are fond of using highly technical and demonstrative sentences (as they should since they're the news)
 

Kourai

Not pictured: the will to live
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Joined:  Sep 16, 2022
Crossposting Deluxe's Vtuber vocabulary flashcards.
I made a flash card set of 49 Japanese words and net slang often used by vtubers for beginner level learners. If you can recognize these squiggly lines, you should be able to understand at least half of JP vtuber stream thumbnails.

It's mostly Phase Connect memes because that's what I had on my computer.

Please feel free to use this in any way you wish.

1664891211238.png
 

The Proctor

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Joined:  Sep 9, 2022
Anyone know decent resources for practicing how to read hiragana and katakana by themselves fluidly? I've got my memorization game down pretty good, but being able to actually read sentences of natural Japanese written in the regular alphabet seems like a great way to speed up my comprehension of it and turn it from intellectual word association to something more instinctive.
 

BlueSharkTV

Fucking Riggers
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Joined:  Sep 10, 2022
Alright i don't know how okay it is to share a 50gb or so torrent with a lot japanese learning shit from the torrent thread in 4chan over here, so if you all want it and are okay with it then I'll post it here when i wake up.

EDIT: I just realized i forgot to @The Proctor besides asking if i do post the torrent should i put it on base64 to try and avoid issues or i just post the magnet.
 
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pururun

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Joined:  Sep 17, 2022
Anyone know decent resources for practicing how to read hiragana and katakana by themselves fluidly? I've got my memorization game down pretty good, but being able to actually read sentences of natural Japanese written in the regular alphabet seems like a great way to speed up my comprehension of it and turn it from intellectual word association to something more instinctive.
I can't think of a better answer than to just start reading things, which sounds like a lazy answer but is the truth from my experience. I started out reading the text on Gunpla boxes and tweets from Japanese people I was following. I never found katakana to be a struggle like some people do because it's just used so much in plamo, video games, manga, etc. That alone is evidence that you really just need to get them into your eyeballs in regular places to improve.
 

Lesbian Solid Snake

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Joined:  Sep 19, 2022
Anyone know decent resources for practicing how to read hiragana and katakana by themselves fluidly? I've got my memorization game down pretty good, but being able to actually read sentences of natural Japanese written in the regular alphabet seems like a great way to speed up my comprehension of it and turn it from intellectual word association to something more instinctive.
What pururun said. Right now I'm reading a few easy manga where everything is In hiragana or some kanji with furigana next to it. I also find reading aloud helps too.
 

The Proctor

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Joined:  Sep 9, 2022
What pururun said. Right now I'm reading a few easy manga where everything is In hiragana or some kanji with furigana next to it. I also find reading aloud helps too.

Define 'easy manga'? Would appreciate links.
 

Just A Plant

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agility_

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Books for Japanese reading that aren't manga or light novels made specifically for kana learners:


You get some (paltry) vocabulary pages but the reason these are useful is they contain side by side readings, so you are still getting real JP text next to an analysis segment afterwards. For vocabulary, learning random words is neat but what you seek are collocations

https://www.bookdepository.com/Common-Japanese-Collocations/9781568365572 <- not entry level, but a trove of useful vocabulary.
 

Kazuma

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pururun

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Joined:  Sep 17, 2022
Define 'easy manga'? Would appreciate links.
I second the recommendation for Yotsuba, which is not only a good starter but also a genuine masterpiece. There are some difficult points when the adult characters talk to each other though, but they are few and far between. Manga serialized in CoroCoro is also good, I'm reading Dorabase right now and it's a lot of fun.
 

vestars20

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Joined:  Sep 14, 2022
Alright i don't know how okay it is to share a 50gb or so torrent with a lot japanese learning shit from the torrent thread in 4chan over here, so if you all want it and are okay with it then I'll post it here when i wake up.

EDIT: I just realized i forgot to @The Proctor besides asking if i do post the torrent should i put it on base64 to try and avoid issues or i just post the magnet.
Don't see a reason why not unless proctor doesn't want direct links. If so maybe a pastebin or other intermediary site could be fine.

When I get home I'll paste a /jp writeup that I think is helpful
 

Realticule

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I've been playing around with duolingo the last few days and while it's fun it can be frustrating as it doesn't explain why certain things are the way they are and you either need to look it up or just make some assumptions. Still rather fun, until it hits you with shit like this:
1668230826752.png

Just don't give the option to use kanji if you're not going to accept it, rather use that space for things that sound similar but aren't right, which is does at times and I like.
 

Thomas Talus

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Duo also has problems where it will give an incorrect written english version of the reading of a kanji, although it will usually give the correct spoken pronunciation.
 

Realticule

Prime Indigenous Pipkin Pippa Appreciator.
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Joined:  Sep 11, 2022
Duo also has problems where it will give an incorrect written english version of the reading of a kanji, although it will usually give the correct spoken pronunciation.
I've had it happen at least once where one of the bubbles would say something completely different than what was written in it. It was also the right answer in the written form but confused the hell out of me as some words can have very different pronunciations depending on how they're used.
 
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